Ismael Otero and Edwin Ferreras Talk Bachata and Salsa Scene in New York | Café con Jen | Episode 3

In this episode, I'm speaking to Ismael Otero, Owner of Caribbean Soul Dance Company and Edwin Ferreras, Founder of Areito Arts! We cover an array of topics, starting how the arrived to teach bachata, how they judge bachata and take two questions from the audience. Hopefully, we can share a few gems with you! #Bachata #Salsa #IsmaelOtero #EdwinFerreras

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Transcript

0:00
Welcome back everyone check out today's latest episode where we are in conversation with ease my little owner and founder of Caribbean so dance company and Edwin fitted as co owner and co founder of at a darts

0:16
bam. Check it out.

0:30
Welcome is Ismael Otero and Edwin M Ferreras

0:35
M stands for Manuel

0:37
Manuel

0:43
because it was live

0:44
yeah it's I mean it's there. I feel like people are gonna be like, what is the M stand for?

0:52
Again you see is my people are nosy they're always gonna be business. Yeah, no, thank you for coming on and having this conversation about by chat that I feel like especially in this time, we want to kind of sometimes learn from lived experience versus what we learn in textbooks or in writings because we also are now living in a time where we're questioning who's writing this and what this perspective is from and is if it's authentic to the people that experienced it, the people that went through it and things like that. So I wanted to have your lived experience and your perspectives. And I'm going to start with ease mine. If you can just talk a little bit about how you came about my chatter, whether it was listening to it or dancing to it. I like how you started in the scene.

1:44
Or this happened like early 90s

1:49
there was just always chocolate club and every time you went out dancing, it was um, stop submitting and get my chocolate. That's amazing. You buy chocolate and then Fatima and Spanish rock. That's something good khumba bachata and it made a big hit in the mid 90s. With um, like younger people, you know, made it see yeah mode that was like the hit song of the 90s and you see all these like, street kids just that's the you know now it's not their parents that anymore now it's the hip thing to do is to death by chocolate when you're Timberlands you know, so, um, it's always been there. And just like I said, it wasn't like, something done for as far as like, performing that or teaching it. You know, like I said, back in those days and mostly everything, you know, you either had it or you don't, basically.

2:44
Yeah, I guess. I guess so. What was your first six? I mean, for me, it was more. I started on Saturday mornings and my mom would start cleaning. Cleaning the entire house she was list she would listen to more to like boleto and by your motto. Were bachata salsa wasn't really like a part of the cleaning routine. Like, do you remember the first time or the first encounter before the clubs? Listening too much? Is that part of your household kind of thing?

3:11
No, it wasn't actually it. I went to a buy chocolate club. That was my first experience. And a friend of mine, she goes, You done bachata. I go, I don't know what that was, this is untouched. Right? This took me on a dance floor. And she started showing me the steps. You know, and then I started Googling with it, like all this cool. And then like I said, then the 90s came and that's when we all started dancing. So I kind of had like a little bit of a head start over. The younger people, you know, their parents, they all knew it. Because they've been you know, listening to it for a long time. But I had a head start and like the new generation

3:48
nice. And so the same question goes now to Edwin, what was your first again using my example like my I came across it through actually just seeing going outside of myself. householding wanted the artist to hear about Chaka What was your experience with bachata, whether it was in the household or outside?

4:08
It was definitely in the household. I didn't like it at first, I'm one of those few Dominicans that, you know, will tell you like, I didn't like bachata. Originally, I was admitting gado. So I think it was like, my mom. I mean, I had to ask my mom because of the dates, but I think it was 1989 when I first realized what the music was, like, I was listening to it and I would dance to it, but I didn't like it. You know, my mom told me she would have to, like, you have to dance this to not just meeting and I think in 1992 I don't remember what the song was. But I'm Tony Santo had came out with a new album then. And that's when I started like, Whoa, this is different. You know, it's like, blues or something because I was really into jazz, you know, really early on, and that music to like, was like blues to me. So I think that that Kinda like my first experience with like, loving it, you know, in the in the early 90s but in when it's at 990 Oh man, I was like No, I don't want to hear this anymore. It's too It's too tween between is too too sad You know?

5:17
Yeah, and I mean that's so that's where I guess the term musika Amar Gale, a court covenants comes from because bachata so it, especially when you go back to 1989 it was always talking about well, not always, I don't want to assume I don't want to generalize. But the tendency was that it was about hybrid was about someone being destroyed by a woman because we can also talk about how bachata is male dominated during that time. I guess Can you both and feel free to jump in? Can you both talk about how you went from loving this how this being kind of part of your life to how it Transition to, okay let's let's do structure let's have a, let's go to a dance or even how you know how you created a dance class and how that transition was for you coming from this, like the streets and like part of your community to in a dance studio.

6:19
I found out that teaching by chapter wasn't so easy, you know, I thought was gonna be easy. But you know a lot of people don't have that hip movement, you know. So when I saw that, like, wait a minute, this is like, harder this will have to learn how to basically teach by chapter a little bit more technical, when before it was just, this is what we do. Like I said, you know, and back back in. Like I said, I'm Edwin on the 80s and 90s. We didn't have YouTube, we didn't have mp3, you know, it was really it was hard to find. And people just just did it. So I was like, Okay, I gotta put a structure to this, if I'm going to teach it and you know, basically though 123 and hips 123 and hip and then evolved to 12341234 and then 12345678 there wasn't really a structure just try to do the best you can to make people move you know and in the beginning the thing is like I remember the 90s the automatic stay up here and then like a little bit of a bobble head and head goes up to and also the bass you know, we definitely don't go not right ever but before was to the face. So do

7:35
you know and after a while

7:40
I will just play around with it and I will put my little hip hop moves I will do like a lot of you know, crazy moves. And you know, some people liked it. Some people didn't, but I just did it because I couldn't stay just doing one step. So as I started teaching it, I started like, getting more used to teaching variations of Did you know? And then, um, that's when it started blowing up again. And so I already had a teaching format when it when it blew up, or like 10 years ago. I already had a format so it was easier for me to teach

8:17
it for me. For me it was, um, it was a very strange experience because, you know, I, I feel like I did have a better teacher, you know, in 1995 I had my my aunt she was a she's into Santeria Voodoo, you like all the afro spiritual, you know, dhruba land, music and culture, but she loved bachata. And once in a while, she would like, actually teach me like, like, here's what you do. Here's how you do it. There was no count involved, you know, like he smiled said except that with her, it was not even a 1234. It was just like, here's where you step, and there's gonna be that many steps, and then whatever. And it was more like, hold on, hold my hand and I do through it. I think that was like about 95 or 96. But mind you that I didn't, there was never a thought in my head about teaching my chapter anything like that, until 2004 or five at City College. And it actually started with, with Joe Buddha ghosts, because Joe Buddha was coming to my college campus to teach salsa. And like Smita said, this is around the time when the when the structure of teaching with numbers evolved from the two stepping to the 1234 to now a four eight count. And that was because of the self settles, you notice I said those were counting AIDS. And Joe Buddha was just like a dinosaur like he knows so much. And he goes back so far. And he was probably one of the first people that I remember teaching machaca so he comes to the college campus to teach salsa. One day, he calls me out of the blue that he's you know, not gonna be able to make it because he was sick. think this was 2005 and say, yo, Edwin, I need you to do this. I need it. I'm like, Oh, me. I'm the student. I'm like, Though in the back, usually in the back sometimes in the middle of the class, like, I can't be, you know, teaching a class. And he's like, it's like in salsa, when I bring you to the front and you do the good job, just just do whatever you're Dominican. I'm like, Okay. And I remember being so nervous that I called my art. And I'm like, you want to come to city college with me? Yeah. That's partner. But I mean, she, she didn't but um, what she did tell me was like, just just do it natural. And we use that word today. And it meant so much to me to hear someone said do it natural because all I thought was okay, do it natural means. Let me just do it out of focus. Like, let me just be there and say, Okay, here's a song Everyone follow me and then just dance everyone will grow partner and this is dance. And that's exactly what I did. There was no pattern. I didn't teach a figure. I was just literally social dancing, while people watch and then I said do something like what I just did. And that was my first batch of a class. I want to say it was like 2005 or 2006 but Then after that, you know, then we had the explosion of the dance community then we have the first bachata social. Then you have gear Canada teaching the first bachata class outside of, you know, college campus. And, you know, that's when the structure really started to I think, I don't know about you smile, but we started to really pay attention to salsa structure and use that to teach by chapter.

11:20
Yeah, that's what I did.

11:22
Yeah, so we cheated. Basically, we just like okay, I don't know what to do. What are y'all doing 123567 and then some term patterns and then some work. Gotcha. That's what I'm gonna do that but that's exactly what happened.

11:34
I mean, that's that's how you build community, right? Like you when we talk about like, trying to help each other out like, okay, we use our experiences and what we've done to help someone else go through what, like just in life, I think it's not definitely not cheating. I think it's just like, borrowing and

11:52
maybe laziness. Yeah.

11:56
Something

11:57
now mind you, there was a lot of Small Metallica club all over the place, you know? So we were already used to it, you know, like I said, Now we're trying to be a little bit more technical, like I said was like everyone said, you know, but then when it started to grow to like, social and then eventually a Congress, you know, you would just say, you know, by Congress and everybody will be like, how does that work? You know, how do you do that, you know, but um, I think it was for me, I miss Georgia Lee zondo. And Rodney, they were like, yo, we're gonna do a chocolate event. And I looked at them like, that's just, like, unheard of it sounded weird, you know? But you know, they stuck to their plan and we are you know,

12:49
and you both made really good points is like that, that transition of like, Okay, what am I like, how do I do this? Like, what's going on here? Do you feel Do you feel like that even as the The dance scene has evolved to what it is now. Do you feel like there's still a moments where just like, you know where it came from, you know how that first experiences and now you see where it's at? Do you ever feel like there's a disconnection or like something that you necessarily would like to kind of go back to?

13:22
salutely Absolutely.

13:26
Every single day, you know, we talk about this, he's my, I like the feeling of the, the feeling of what dancing was like in the 90s for me, and even in the in the early 2000s. Like the feeling of dancing bachata was then was nothing like what I feel now. And I feel like part of that disconnection is what a lot of people like us try to, you know, like, how can we emulate that feeling from back then and then get into today's world? Because I feel like when people are exposed to that, oh my goodness, it's like, yo, that was the shit dancing in the 90s. Like, I was in the underground clubs and bachata was like, all the ladies like, Oh my god, you guys. So good. I'm like Wow, this is a great feeling today, I feel like it's become not not everywhere and everywhere in the world, but it's become a little bit more superficial. And it's really hard to teach students how to get out of that. I got to look like an instructor, I got to do this particular thing. So yeah, like yeah,

14:15
feeling, you know, you can't teach people feeling. And even if you have a method of of opening a door to make them understand how it should feel for them, it's hard to teach that to a student, when they focus on the step itself. So it's giving them too much to do, you know, so that's why I tell them, get, you know, get the structure but trying to connect to it in your way because feeling something you don't teach, you know, but you try to guide people to understand like, the music, the instruments, the artists, what he meant, what is the song saying, you know, and once you get that feeling, you're in heaven, you know, it was just more natural in the 19. Like everyone said, because there were no like school, the classes it just we just did it. So their focus was more on affiliate word. I think today, more than Did the step You know? So then Luckily, most people after they learn the steps, they kind of like the feeling kind of takes over, you know, so it's still there. It was just more natural before, like, like everything, you know.

15:15
I wanted to add one thing, Jen. The disconnect also for me happens the other way like, because like you might have said back then we didn't have the YouTube we didn't have the social media, we didn't even have a lot of books. Like I remember that one of the first books was 1987. So you're talking 9695 there was not enough information back then all you had was the oral tradition of passing things down from one generation to the other. And today, I feel like that disconnect is the other way because we have so much information. There's so many, you know, innovators, so many legends, so many experts, so many books, so much YouTube videos like and still be with all this information. I feel like it's still the dancing. I can't describe it. I can't compare it to what it was then.

16:02
Yeah, and it's, and for me, I'm more of a problem solver problem solver or trying to come to where we, where we create impact or we can change the situation. And but obviously, knowing that some things are just what it is. And that's just, you know, a British person who's coming into dance buckshot, but sometimes it's just a distraction from them from their nine to five job. It's not the kind of and it's not they don't have the same intention as let's say, a three dancing match out that because it's it's tied. It's tied a little deeper because it's a part of our culture. So I guess I'm just trying, like, do you think that the structure right now the Latin dance community, like as you both mentioned the Congress's Do you think they can do a better job of like creating an atmosphere that can? I know, it's a feeling but do you think that there's something that promoters can do that replicating will not replicate but come closer to the atmosphere that these bachata clubs. That what I feel like when I go to a con model in the Dr. And there's like this open space with just like one speaker and there's no, there's no guidelines, there's no cliques. There's not none of these social norms that exist in the dance community are Congress's can implement or encourage like, what would you What would you if you could talk to a promoter?

17:28
You know, what a lot of promoters have done all they could to try to get that atmosphere but eventually it because the people, you know, if you have a lot of people that just got into a job, like, that's the real thing, you know, like, hey, this looks like something fun. Let me get into it. They don't they don't have that experience. You know, they just go through that motion, though. Then you go to someone you know, like, if I go to Washington Heights and you're going to Congress, he's gonna feel like a fish out of water. Like the music's familiar, but The atmosphere is different, you know? So for me promoters they provide basically what you need space, music and some events to place all types of bachata, you know, and other ones have separate rooms. So they have tried but it really depends on the people and a lot of promoters want to give the people what they want, you know, but some people expect magic, you know, and it's up to you, you know, don't go to an event, looking for fun, you know, you got to make it fun. And learn as much as you can, you know, and that's everything. You know, that's all just

18:35
my, my thought on it is, you know, everything is matter to set from the aspect of the consumer and the provider and the creators of these events. I would just add that there have been Okay, so in 2007 or eight, right before you know, one of the first bachata festivals are like, you know, right after actually the first part of the festival in New York. It was not even its own thing. It was like a separate room inside of another festival with with choco and Island touch and I feel like back then there was not a lot of demand from non Caribbean people on authenticity and education and information and musicality, there was not a big demand. Now the demand has grown and I feel like a lot of organizers have adapted like for instance edworthy VEDA brings the court at night to do a presentation like hey, can you guys do a presentation on the history of bachata and show some cultural context? I'm like, what we are getting Ito Hey, listen, I got a projector you know, I know you you and I'm like if the demand is there, these these organizers they listen you know I can name a few are getting Ito Rudy you know even the people in Australia that that the first international one. Like we've been went over there to teach cultural content and I think that it's it's a smaller group of people. I would say even niche, but if the demand grows, a lot of like, a smile said, it's the demand of the public. So if the people are demanding it, they'll start to bring it in. So I think that's one of the solutions. You know, it's just to if you want it, you have to demand it. Otherwise we can't, I can't complain. The consumer can't complain, and the organizers can't complain.

20:22
Yeah, and that's, that's really that's real, like people have to want to know more about the culture and I guess what I'm thinking about when I think about bachata and wanting to know the culture, I feel like it's, it's also wanting to know more about the music. And I think for me as an instructor myself, I when like Bongo Chaka, and all these like different versions of much I thought, well, now we can get into like, what's up and what's not much other but as an instructor with all these new things coming out, it's just also not only the student is learning, but also the teachers are learning like kind of like these models. saying like I just I was dancing my shot that now I had to teach my job. So now I have to learn structure and I have to learn how to teach how to make you understand. From a, I guess from a teacher perspective is just like, what are the conversations that you're having with your students about what is bachata? What instruments need to be in a song to be considered by Tata? Like, what are those conversations looking like with your students?

21:24
Well, you know, I mean, Edwin, we kind of use instruments to teach our students. So while we're teaching, and we play the Bongo, they kind of like arm fuse it to their, their, their learning, you know, when you play the instruments, like while you teach them, they make a connection, you know, so even, um, it's like, most subliminal whether they want to let it or not. Once they hear that rhythm, it's easier for them to adjust, you know, they just gotta be going there with an open mind and and try to absorb as much as they can.

22:01
Yeah, I agree. I think that

22:05
innovation comes in a lot of different ways. And I wasn't always teaching with instruments, you know, like, I know maybe maybe making instruments sounds because I just always been drawn to instrument. So maybe I'll make like the you hear that? Okay. Oh yeah, I heard it. But I don't remember what year I started teaching with instrument. But I remember that that was the year that I never looked back. Like, since that year, everywhere I went with my partner, there was going to be instruments in a class even if we had to buy like miniature ones. And it's because we realized how important it was for people to visually see the instrument that's making that sound. And you know, we can't fit everything into a luggage so even if we could just bring a video for them to see like, okay, you see that? That's the that's that that's this. That's this. And you know, I think that it's a very valuable piece of information. No, Carlos. Sita does a really good job of this because he's even design classes, just for teaching music like musicality, Not even dancing just like how to listen to the music. And I think that it improves people's dancing to know what the sounds are. Like, it's my, when you when we're in Caribbean soul learning the choreographies like i would i would be pissed off at this guy because all he did was talk about the you hear that? That? And I'm like, No, I don't hear it. But that's how he teaches he teaches you to listen. And I think that if more instructors are teaching students to listen, and not just to act and react and do patterns, which is all great, but if you're learning how to listen, I feel like you're dancing is one more informed, you have a lot more context. And it's not even that difficult to, to hear the instruments once you know what to pay attention to, or even to play an instrument or not. Some people are like, well, I want to at least you know, try playing an instrument. It's not a mandatory thing. It's you know, more of a if you want to do it, but once you start getting into that world of listening to music is really hard to pull yourself out. And there's more joy in teaching as well. At least for me, there hasn't been

23:59
Yeah, you workshop when you bring the instruments, it's fun, like I like to even join, you know, like, he makes it fun and he has all these instruments. He brings a chart and everything you know.

24:10
And it's not boring, you know, and

24:14
I was teaching a private class. As a

24:17
student you're interested, you know, and like he said, there are people that are putting in effort and there's a musician that's also a pseudo mucha Taro. His name is Gabby Golan. He has music out there in Korean. So right now he started doing a series where he's dancing only to the bass and then only to the Bongo. So like I said, people are trying, you know, to come up with new ideas to make people more original.

24:42
Let me ask, sorry, let me add something to the smiles. last comment, not just to be more original, but I think also coming from a teaching like backgrounds since I'm a school teacher. The all these innovations are also helping more people connect to the information and making it more inclusive because like, we've noticed Throughout the years, maybe maybe when we first started, he smiled. We didn't think about this and we just kind of learned that we weren't like, Oh, wait, you need a visual aid. Okay? Oh, wait, you need to hear it okay? Or you need to feel it. Some people just need different things. So I think that just bringing all these things into a classroom, like bringing a chart, bringing an instrument, even if it's a small, tiny greet our, or having sound effects or something helps people who who don't learn traditional, like not everyone learns a traditional Watch and learn. Some people just need to be held by the hand like, hey, let me hold your hand. Put that you see that you feel that? Oh, oh. So I think that the innovation, like it's my said, it's helpful to create more complete answers, but also to allow students who don't learn the same way to connect to the information angle.

25:45
What's his name? Oh,

25:50
I'm in it. I'm gonna go back to a little bit about what you both were saying about how in New York City words we're talking about New York City, just because We're gonna focus on that geography and you touched on the the you know ease mile from Caribbean soul. I actually met you both because we were we competed in a in a dance competition at the New York salsa Congress. And Edwin was a part of his my that was Caribbean soul team. That one. It wasn't like the first championship is that

26:23
that was the first that was the first bachata, traditional bachata. No, not even traditional was just the first bachata championship in a congress that I even I mean, in North America, at least I don't know about Europe and what was happening out there.

26:37
Let me tell you a funny story about that.

26:39
Yeah.

26:41
I understand that we didn't have at that time there was like, No, we didn't have the structure we have today. We kind of had to have to wing it. And so I thought, Alex, let's just try stuff. And we had on these two girls, that we have the social club and I said this Bring them in. And all you have to do is teach them technique. Because they already incredible. social data is amazing. You know, Yvonne? Surely they will. Yeah. And so Alex told me Yo, can you call me to Philly for the workshop? So I took an opportunity to put a CD together to make a routine. And I put that that's that that CDN. And Allison's like, No, not that one. Nope, not that one. Not that one, you know, and, and, you know, mind you, I'm his, I'm his director, but I put him in charge of the chocolate because it would be too much for me to do something, but I thought I put him in charge. Another song. And he didn't like any of the songs. The last song was I'm ahead. Right? And we both just sat there. We're like, that's the song. And the funny part about it is that I don't remember putting that song or even having it so even though we finally you know, we got the song we didn't know what to do with You know, so I heard the beginning sounded like, like, kind of anguish, anyway, did it it it, it it it is I think that a tiger move Dunk Dunk. So for the competition class, we're rehearsing. Yeah, we're rehearsing. And then we find out in the rules that have to be three couples, you know, and we had someone that was supposed to do it, but he couldn't do it. Yeah. So we asked, you know, Edwin and Melanie, and they left at one, two days, I think.

28:31
a day and a half again. The last one was a tech rehearsal.

28:35
Yeah, yeah.

28:38
And if you look at the video,

28:41
Edwin and Melanie did the best they was. You can see their joy, you know, they stole the show, you know, and we rocked it, you know, and again, he just jumped in there. Lucky. You know, he knows bachata from the street. He knows how to do it technically. And next year. Um, that style started, it became a thing you know to do that style that Machado, you know, cuz I guess we'll go back and forth. Man Alex, like I said I would I would add something that he would add something and we would just like feed off each other you know,

29:19
I was gonna say a lot of people even to this day Jen like it I have to remind myself that the dancing before that competition was also very different and just in general and I think that that that style of dancing that Caribbean so created for bachata competition became a very influential thing in social dancing because To this day, no one like like, no one was dancing that way, not Island touch, which were the biggest superstars at the time cooking Judah, like, there was no one and and this is before we were teaching by chapter classes in the big major congresses. So from that competition was born. This influential thing where even to this day I see a lot of people doing remember that that move MPC, the MPC, though no one was doing that before. And now every time I every time I do it and people are like, oh look like the guy from from Europe, and I'm like, Yeah, but we were doing that in New York 10 years ago, you know. So I have to remind myself that it was a very influential

30:22
piece or choreography or piece of art.

30:25
Yeah, even myself as a student. I remember the first time I saw Karen and Ricardo and I saw her amazing abilities like where they were, she was spinning like 1000 times like a tornado. And I was as a student starting in salsa, I was like, oh, wow, like, that's so so innovative, so amazing. And then someone next to me was like, you know, like, there's other people that do that. That's, they're just the ones that can do that right now. And it just kind of opens your mind as a student sometimes that sometimes when students see something they truly believe that you're the innovator like you're like you just created that and they need to be as creative versus like the dances not like that dances kind of you're borrowing things from different from different dances or like different people and you kind of develop, implement that into your own dance. I wanted Edwin, can you talk? Oh, actually, he's mad. Can you talk about why you thought of Edwin in the first place? Like what was your connection to Edwin? How did this relationship start?

31:22
Edwin is a he's a character. You know, the character is very enthusiastic. And most people probably would have been like, no, that's not enough time. And Edward was like, I've never performed on stage before. I said, Give me your debut. Like oh my god. You know, but he just like I said he was very excited and and Emily worked so hard. And like I said, you have to see women Edwin, just see each other is a show, you know? Yeah, we are Hello. It's a breakdance

31:58
or a rap battle in the last three years. For years now,

32:00
yeah. So his personality you know, aside from his personality, he's just he's very skillful. You know, like, sometimes you look at him and you're like, no, that's funny. You know, He's talented, but very knowledgeable, you know, and like I said he did, he did a great job. And, you know, if it wasn't for him, you know, we would have the opportunity to even compete. So none of that would have happened and that like you said that that routine effort will never evolve.

32:29
Yeah, and which is amazing. I also I felt like Edwin has been part of my my teaching and dancing actually my dancing career since today. It's Wednesday. Yeah. Yeah, no, I remember going up to City College and taking a class with Edwin because I just I went to meet someone and you understand their vibe and their intention and their purpose. You're like, I just want to keep learning from you because I know that that authenticity is there. That genuineness the love of the dances there versus what I was experiencing in. I used to live in Queens, New York and in dance videos that I was going to out there. It was just this like, Okay, this isn't our salsa pattern that we've done for a million bazillion years. And we're just going to see we're going to apply it to but at the timing, and we're just going to sell it we're going to this is your best shot by class and zero intentions 00 authenticity, it was just like so much I felt as coming from a mother who's Semitic and I was like, This is disrespectful. Like what was wrong with you, you know? So I guess it's like what what has been your experience about like this New York especially in the coming up in the coming up phase of bachata, with instructors who kind of just took salsa moves and just did it too but at the timing, like how did you find how did you try how what was your journey into like, structuring authentic bachata, whatever that means to you? To not be like salsa most of the time.

34:03
Or, you know, like I said, it's how you basically everything how you do it, you know, you can take a softer move, or did you kind of like give that chocolate timing and that bachata feeling, then you can make it look authentic, you know? Because again, I'm sorry, I took from hustle and swing. And now it's a norm, you know, people we didn't do many term patterns back in the day, my mo was more about footwork, you know, but, you know, everything starts evolving, but I think as long as

34:34
it doesn't look too much like Sansa

34:38
because those moods are very easy to put on any dance, you know, but the essence and the energy, you tweak it to a certain way, and it can work, you know, that's what evolution is all about. You know.

34:51
I think that

34:54
like, because I'm always coming, you know, towards everything from a cultural perspective. I have to like, you know, almost like play devil's advocate a little bit because, for me, for me to see something done today or back then in the beginning of the formations of bachata community. We used to do this a lot, you know, this idea of watching a video, you know, this is when YouTube actually first started, I think it was like 2006 or five, two years after we started finding and getting videos, and we got, you know, people in Italy, and like, ooh, Tony Lara and my whole thing was, I was my partner at the time. siana she, you know, she was the one really who was like, we need to get out of the structure because I was very, I was very interested to see gastic but I was very structured, everything was structured. And seanna was like, No, let's just have fun with it. You know, let's just, and I feel like part of the reason I'm such a, you know, okay, let's just get out of the structure a little bit and focus more on the all the different aspects was because of what was happening in my earlier teaching days because we used to watch videos and turn The sound and we used to look at it and even to this day for me rather than saying whether it looks like sauce or whatever it is, I just show it to my mom. Like mom Look at this. What do you think this is? And my mom would tell me Okay, that looks like sour sour. Okay, it looks like kinda like bachata salsa. Oh that looks like bachata with some flavor. Oh, that's you know, my mom is my metric my my meter because she's untainted like she's never took a class she's never been to like you know, anything a story or anything like that. So for me She's my fountain so if she could tell me if it's you know, I like it's my said, I used to be very critical back then about including Sasson was in bachata. But I started to realize that that from the point of view of you know what cultural misappropriation is in Dominican Republic and guba when when those people watch their own culture, you know, they're watching it from the their, their eyes, their or their bubble or their surrounding. And we have to remember that but chat that wasn't Other innovation from Bolero and so on and all these other stuff so, so it is okay to draw from other areas and innovate. But like I said, if it doesn't have that bachata feeling, if it doesn't, if I don't if I look at it like or I can count how many basics you do with one finger. And that's, hey, listen, we talked about this, you know, it's it's like advice for the new generation because I know more people want to look more authentic. And if y'all want to look authentic, yeah, gotta start putting in the basic in there somewhere.

37:36
100% I guess Can you both talk about how that lens or that like that that comes through for you when you're judging competitions?

37:48
Oh, my God, the first time I judge a competition. I didn't know. I didn't know what to do because, again, the people from Europe and like atmosphere didn't even do it but something basic. So I'm like, I didn't know what to look at, you know, I didn't see like nothing but Chapa you know, so a lot of my scores as far as, like, timing and stuff were very low. And, you know, during the break, they were like, yo, you know what's going on? I don't see my chocolate. You know, it's hard. I see a choreography, I see a beautiful choreography, I'm impressed, but I don't see but you know. And it was confusing, you know. So in the world Latin dancer. They did chocolate, but then they also did a chocolate cabaret, which that timing is more like 135. So then there was a lot of walking and posing, and stuff like that. So now that they gave me a description, now I could judge it more, you know, because like I said, um, where people don't realize that in music, I think everyone should jump in on this. This rhythm and rhythm, you know, so even though sometimes With a tip like this, they can still be in the bachata rhythm for musicality purposes, you know, but I, people think that I'm a purist, you know, and I am, but I'm also out there, you know, the thing is, I, in my opinion, you can do whatever you want. Take it everywhere. As long as you have knowledge of the core, you know, I know I know, the core of my chakra, and I might do something totally unconventional, you know, but judging it before was was difficult. And now I just see everybody always does the same thing. You know, there's, there's so many things you can do. But they all do the same thing. And me when I'm judging, I'm brutal. You know, I am, you're not my friend when when I'm charging, you know? And, but I'm ready for them to come ask me why. And I tell them this is why you know, at least at least, have a chance to rhythm you know, if I can feel your bachata rhythm and accompany with the music and for me personally, it's covenant The music is to be the judge of competition.

40:06
Yeah, there's nothing to add to that for me. Judging like, oh man, I've judged so many times in so many different part of the world, and I absolutely hate it. I hate judging. I hate the idea of sitting there and tell another person if their art is good enough in my in my view, musicality wise or technique wise, my first time judging you smile was when we were in New Jersey. I don't remember the name of that club, but it was like a long time ago. And I think we had to, like do a point system. And that's when I first realized that I didn't like judging you know, I did it because I was invited. I don't remember who invited me. Then. What's his name? Alejandro. Alejandro from matcha. mmm, ah, we created our own competition when we first curated like one of those first parties and he was telling me Hey, you know, I think I think you should judge and I'm like, I don't like judging. And this is actually how I became an MC. Because when people would ask me to judge, I would say, hey, look, um, I don't know about judging, but do you have an MC yet? And I volunteered myself for MC I'm like, you know what, I rather much, much rather grab the microphone because, you know, I come from that hip hop old school mentality rapping and graffiti. And that was, that's what I do love. I don't like judging. So I'm like, judging as it is, it's I feel like it's one of the most difficult jobs because if you have to tell someone if they're good enough, like you have to tell someone from your perspective, that they're not good enough to meet that, that standard of yours. I'm like, uh, but I do it now more than before because I'm realizing that if there is going to be judging, I would love for it to at least have a balance. And a lot of the times that I see competitions being judged, there is no cultural context whatsoever and it's it plays into that. That epidemic of cultural appropriation or misappropriation, because now you're saying, I'm the bachata World Champion six years in a row, and the Dominican will look at you and say, but of which world though, like, and I know it sounds Yeah, it sounds funny, but it's one of those things where it's like, what do you do? Like, if you are going to ask me to judge, I'm going to at least take seriously and you know, from what I see from the different options, I'm going to tell you my expert, my perspective, I'm glad that is a point system and that I don't have to like write an essay for each one, because that would be hoof. I would never be invited to judge again.

42:38
Well, they should have some something in a competition culturally, but again, we always got Always remember that any competition we have to consider it as like a sports dance, you know, and we always want to put our culture in there, but that's why we have shows you know, it's a very, you know, the touchy subject when people want to see stuff that they're used to what they expect. But competition I just realized a long time ago I say, you know what, it's just who's stronger, faster? And they took their technique to another level, you know? But then you go to the corner you have someone that's in a chapter that will kick their ass like.

43:17
Yeah, but I think you touched on a really good subject is that like, you can leave that cultural component to performing right like on a stage, but I also feel like it also applies to performing because who is making these lineups? Who is closing a show? And if you compare it to someone who does want to culturally I mean, I for 100% as half Dominican, I love watching everyone's shows. I feel like I can show Edwin like the video of Edwin's performance to my mom, and my mom is going to be like, I see sassy like that's how you represent the culture. That's how you do it. And then I show her like who quote unquote always closes the shows in terms of bachata and my mom is just like that, just like you Like what you were saying, Oh, that's a good choreography. Okay, I can, you know, they work out like that kind of, but there's like a disconnection there and even in like, just you're performing. So I do agree that there are times where you where culture can come in and then like you as an athlete, like your athletic athletic ability has to has to shine through. But I push back like I do, and I'm going to be a devil's advocate and be like, well, is that what we're centering around? Are we really appreciating the dance for what it is, which includes culture? versus like, oh, who's gonna? Basically who's gonna win the competition? amongst all

44:40
you guys have the culture already. That's the thing. You have to compare it to. A lot of these people are just jumping in right now. So they'd have no it'll have a contest. I agree. Yeah. So they're like they like they see someone who you can feel their energy just by doing that by chocolate basically, like God dammit. Amazing, right? When you see someone doing a backflip into a basic, you know that that is the best that they have nothing to compare it to.

45:09
Yeah, I agree. I agree. I was gonna say also Jen, like you said it. I mean, I, my mentality has changed a lot. And I think that that as instructors and people in the community, we have to continue to self reflect and reevaluate ourselves every three or four years just say how, what do I think about this? I used to think very differently. I used to think a lot like, like, his smile was saying, you know, back then, like, a show is a show, you know, entertainment is entertainment, there's no way I'm gonna talk about entertainment from a cultural perspective, because it's entertainment, you know, it's not gonna be authentic. It's just gonna be whatever. However, over the years now, I'm thinking okay, but, but if it's representing a culture or representative cultural dance, then it should at least have some kind of element and you know what I really love. Leslie and George, do this in LA love a lot of actually a lot more organizers are doing this. So they leave the wealth factor shows for last right? But I really appreciate when sometimes they start the shows with a lot of cultural things like you can buy in the beginning and the quarter and I like we've been invited to open a show with like a Bolero, Bolero sun piece, I'm like, Okay. I've never cared about being close to the end because by that time, I'm tired. But if you put me in the beginning to like, open up a show about culture and then and then see the evolution of things ending with the Big Bang. That would be a really great challenge for organizers. I know there's probably a lot more to think about. But I think there'll be a really great challenge to show like a storytelling of the evolution of dance

46:42
BB from Reno, he always wants to get a Dominican follow, you know, so he will ask me enough and I will try to give him information about up that does like, follow ceremony. You know, and I don't think he's ever got to do it. But you know, he was like, You Interested at the yo yo do a follow opening? I think that's

47:04
over. No that's and that's great like that's a good perspective Edwin I don't think I've ever I mean look I'm like learning this is you learn something new every day and then

47:14
I can follow that right Dominican follow. I'm gonna combine a lot of people don't know what that is you know?

47:19
And yeah no i just i i think that it's just heartbreaking because some people don't like now audiences don't come downstate like don't come down to watch the first set of shows. And if you're live streaming some people don't even come down at all and just watch from their rooms on the live stream. They don't even bother to come down. So I guess it's like also maybe pushing like from promoters like going back to like an opportunity or is like really censoring and making sure that people know that this show starts at nine and please come watch the entire show versus just coming for like the last four shows and just kind of changing the way we think about shows.

47:55
promoters they put like, Good show, mediocre. Good, they kind of spaced that out, you know?

48:05
Yeah. It forces people It forces people to watch the whole thing if they want to see their specific, you know,

48:10
yeah, they want that rather than watch shows you.

48:14
Yeah, that's a good that's a good way. I'm gonna I'm gonna transition now to questions from the audience. It may not be anything that we touched on or maybe something that we touched on and you could just elaborate more. Okay, the first question that came in is No, we didn't touch on this because I just feel I can talk for days about this. But as rianta tomatoes asked what makes central be considered by chocolate if the music and steps are not bachata?

48:45
Well, that's what it is sensual is an another is like another branch of the tree. And it got a lot of flack in the beginning even by me. I will tell people look, I'm not anti sensual, I'm just anti cornea move. You know, I think People that is true. Come on.

49:04
Really? Oh.

49:07
So the thing is, you know, we've all done this when we're social dancing, and we do something that we think is you know, clever or cute, but that's just, you know, spur the moment these people are taking those little things and then teaching it as an art. You know, this is much and, and again, I see people I mean, do amazing sexual chakra, you know, but, oh, that if you sent your child out, you gotta have some kind of sensuality. You know, for me, honestly, and I always hate it when I say this, but people who can't move that that's just entertainment for me, you know, seeing people that have no kind of sensual flows, you know, and they kind of like, put it in a box that is that sensual bachata, you must do a body roll. You must do these certain steps, you know? And I see other people along. I was judging competition in Israel, and I had this competition with deca. And you know, I, I told them my view, she told me her view, and she does. Central bachata. She does traditional with Frank samples, you know, and they do, they do amazing. And when I danced with her, I felt like chocolate, it was the most amazing thing that I was like, Oh my god, visually, it didn't look like much, but that rhythm was in her body. I just think if you're gonna do something, um, be able, you know, like I said, if you're gonna dance sexy, you have to be a sexy person, you know, but it's evolved into another branch, and we have to see it as something else. You know, the music didn't evolve. Because when I used to be very vocal about these dances, um, they will call me and be like, but it's my why you're so against it. I go, look, if I hear something that sounds hick ish. And you look like like your robot if it doesn't match, in my opinion, you know? But then as the music evolved, it started getting, you know, had that beautiful intro kind of like modern music and it started sounding beautiful. If you got the capability to merge that and bring it to life again, I liked it, but it's another branch you know you if you tell someone doesn't buy chocolate events and they expect you know the traditional and they see you know everybody else like that, you know, they're gonna be like what's going on but it's become something else and we got to treat it as such exactly the same way they get don't care from reggae, but it became its own own thing. You know, nobody that goes to other your own party is gonna be like, you know, where the Jamaican you know, with the reggae because they know, you know, so when you when you go to a central and a lot of places are now promoting central bachata. I think it can be beautiful if people put a little bit more effort into learning the specific styles of Central bachata, you know, but there are some people that begin to mold and it messes it up for them, you know, in my opinion, I mean, I, I agree

52:11
with a lot of what these might have said with the exception of the I personally don't like to use the word evolution to describe what's happened to the music and the dance. Because to me, evolution implies that there's traces of a route that then evolved into other things, but you can still see the traces. And I feel like with some with some cases, not all with some cases is so far removed from the route then that that lychees might have said, we need to think of it as a separate thing. Like for instance, I love that example. We smile I use that example a lot when I'm teaching, ethnomusicology, the example of reggae. You know, we had Scott you know, in Jamaica, whoever speaks patois and you have Scott and then you have, you know, the mental and then you have reggae and then you have reggaeton and now you have bimbo. But Notice how those names are changing. Because when you get really far removed from the original mental and scar, now you have to give it a different name because I think that that's the problem. The problem is not that there is evolution or developments or new styles. I think the problem is the labels that we're attaching to them. Sometimes those labels are creating a lot of confusion because somebody's like, coming in today. Today. My first day. Oh, man, I just heard about something called bachata let me Google it. Okay, bachata. The first five pages, you'll see are not going to be the most authentic representation of that style. And that's a problem because now people who do want to learn it are gonna have a hard time finding it. But like I said, it's all great especially if you can still show you know, something beautiful that fits that music. But then when we're labeling it we have to be very careful that we don't miss label or miss some Miss educate people who are thinking, Oh, wait, oh, by tapping Yeah, like I saw. I know by chat. I saw that video. Look, this is my chapter. Then the other thing about the moves, I used to be very critical, just like a smile. I've learned to think of it a different way. Now I'm not so critical about the moves, but there is one pet peeve. And it is any movements in in central bachata dancing, that is symbolizing, something that I don't believe. I'll give you an example. Because I talk about this all the time. And I'm not afraid to talk about it as much as I used to. And is when the guy does this to the woman. And the woman does this. And I know a smile. I used to laugh at this all the time. I was like, Oh my God, look at this. I used to like make jokes. And then I start thinking like, what are we suggesting here? Like, what is the message behind this? Because if art is an imitation of life, and vice versa, someone's going to see that and think, oh, wow, that's so cool. And you know how the brain and psychology works. If I see my top people doing this, I'm probably going to want to do this because when you see a line full of people, you start to wonder like, Hey, what's this line? Let's and then you start getting into line and you don't even know what You're in line four. So I think it's just a matter of what are these movements? And what do they actually mean? Where do they come from? And why? ask that question. Like, when your teacher says, Alright, here's the next move, you're gonna do this, boom and there and then ask them why? They can tell you something

55:15
like, well, cuz in the song The guy said, my man, I'm looking forward to it. Boom, okay, maybe I don't understand.

55:25
But maybe they're annoying.

55:27
I feel like as a follow I do think that it not even like about the messaging as a follow. I'm just like, did we establish a connection so strong that I invited you to touch with your questionable fingers, my face that I could possibly be like? Those are like boundaries like, and I think we could talk about also. I mean, I can also talk about for another hours, like the relationship between men and women and like lead and follow in all of this business and like I joined the dance community because I love the politeness, the respectfulness They're, I could go to a social and I wasn't worried about being hit on or having my number asked for and like I could kind of Well, I mean, that happens still, I mean, all my, my past relationships have been also romantic, like my dance partners but it was that the openness to go out there and not be worried about like is a guy going to dance with a drink in his hand like in most Latin dance clubs in New York, LA still trying to buy chocolate with me and potentially spill his drink on me and all this business. But it says like the boundaries like I didn't like I like don't touch my face, like don't touch my hair, like just dance with me like we have these these these hands to like lead and follow. And I think that that speaks into like, also women issues and like also or follow issues with central budget, the movements and I feel like when the conversation is about, well let me How do I learn to manipulate you or Couldn't like puppeteer you in a way and I'm not leaving with my body I'm not being there as a as a partner for you to like to dance with me. I think that's what I have a problem with personally. I just want if we're going to body roll body roll with me Don't just like consort me to all these things and I feel like I've danced with ghotki before so I do know that central bachata leaders can lead and we can have that experience and I agree with Edwin I I'm leaning towards like I don't it's confusing central bachata you still have the bachata component but yet there's there's components about bachata that's missing for me as a as a social dancer. So yeah, I just agree with

57:45
I agree. I agree with everything like I just feel like you know, with you know, using cork and Judith as an example especially Corker since he you know, he was one of the first people that I remember seeing videos, I think, teaching etiquette along with sensual bachata. It's a perfect product and then giving it a name that that that doesn't upset people of that culture or maybe something that doesn't miss represented perfect product because, yes, you know, not everyone likes all of the sensuality, but a lot of people do. And I think that the point is when there's no etiquette and you just dance with everyone the way that you know how to dance, and you don't realize that, hey, I'm gonna go to Dominican Republic, and Hey, you guys bachata Oh, I dance bachata. Let's go, and the first thing you do is grab that person by the waist and then do something and they're gonna, you know, you might not make it out of their life. Yeah, that's the idea. Just the context and the respect becomes real, it

58:41
becomes real. Yeah. And then and then you can have real cultural context, you know?

58:47
But yeah, it's all good. As long as there's respect. There's no, there's and then consent, Jen, because that's a big thing. You mentioned the consent. If I don't give you permission to treat me like a puppet. If it's not a choreography with You know, it's like, hey, let's let choreography beginning. It's not a choreo. And I don't give you permission. Don't ask me that way.

59:08
I just watch. I feel like sometimes when social dancers go into a social, they just jump in there and they don't just take your time. Get it, get a water, get a drink, like chill out for a second see who is on the dance floor, see who's dangerous, who's not dangerous, who's like, has good musicality, who may be a beginner before you go in there. And then you just make assumptions and you make judgments. Like, I think and I think you could speak to this. I don't know if this happened to you. But I've seen where people are just like, oh, people in Dominican Republic don't know how to dance because they don't dance the way you've learned in a studio or your experiences in a specific style bachata, and then you're just like, oh, Dominicans can dance I'm like, but are we are we going there like just because they don't know how to dance or you are being led or followed in the way that you learn doesn't mean that and again it goes since he smiles like you should be dead. All sides of the chat if you're going to be a budget dancer

1:00:03
2018, Toronto, Canada. We're teaching a class, right up to the class. We're hanging out by the DJ booth. Someone comes up to the corner and says to the quarter, they were having a conversation about chat and Dominican Republic. And that person says, and we use this example in every class because people have to understand how deep this problem can go. The person told Dakota Yeah, I went to Dominican Republic, but people couldn't even dense chapter there. Just I'll just leave it at that because I you know, when we finished this call, you can ask me what the Dominican and you wanted to say what the teacher in me wanted to say. But, but as much as those two people wanted to say something, the other side of me understood exactly what that person meant.

1:00:47
Yeah.

1:00:50
I'm gonna go to the next question. Um,

1:00:56
okay, the next question comes from Betty LG. She's asking Or sorry, Betty, LG is asking how did bachata change from traditional, fast, upbeat sounds to even English covers?

1:01:09
The very beginning had different pitches. And it's been, you know, everybody has, you know, modernized and like everything that gets monitored, it changes, you know, changes with the, the youth, you know, and and like I said, people, they, we kind of like tease people, you know, and but that's just what you know, that's that's just happens to everything. You know, when people were like, yo, chop chop out, you know, it's gonna happen. I already saw that a long time ago happening. You know, I wouldn't be surprised. We have ballet chopper, you know. That's something that's happened in every type of dance, every type of music. We saw it and we criticized it. That and some of them actually tweaked it in a way that was like, You know what? I see that you're trying You know, you're trying to keep it more cultural, but other ones just went out and the reason they do covers is because there's not enough bachata music.

1:02:12
modern ones that, um,

1:02:15
you know, we have access to, you know, we have access to, to thousands of songs, but it's not their preference, you know, if they want to go traditional, they're gonna have a big selection. But the media that they they're used to.

1:02:28
There's not a big, big selection for, you know, right.

1:02:33
I agree I to Betty, if, you know, you end up watching this video, I think that that misconception doesn't necessarily comes from the consumer or the students, students and consumers. We just repeat the information, you know, whatever someone tells us. I think that there are instructors that have at one point or some point in their life made the distinction between central bachata and traditional bachata as one is fast and want to slow and that is It's not true at all. If you look at the first LP of bachata, I don't know, by half one around here, but the LP, you know, big vinyl has two sides. And the first one was guess it at me on one side, but actually are more on the other side. And then when you look at Marino Paris, he has imami eye, which is a very fast one, and then you have the same artist singing

1:03:21
in that mall, okay, not

1:03:22
any, and then it's slower. So the speed has nothing to do with it. I do agree that there's a stereotype like a is mindset. There's a stereotype that for competitions, you need fast music and Dominican footwear, because Carlos talks about that all the time, you have to move up really fast, because it's the mannequin. But then when you go to Dominican Republic, and you see a whole other experience, now I start to think about the classification of what is quote unquote, traditional or Dominican or authentic outside of the ER. Because in the Dominican Republic, those words aren't used, at least not for those reasons. They're not used to separate music over there. You say play through this Machado look at you like what is it? Like? Well, you mean like nylon string bachata from a Leo Paredes. Or you tell them hey, can you pull it out but type of Americana. And they'll be like, or gay. So they say I want more, huh? I want you know, yeah it's one of those things that happened outside of the country and I think that the more we look at the culture The more we understand why we have this problem of misinformation is because instructors I'm guilty of this myself, we teach each other information and if we don't know the information as a human being, sometimes we make it up. A teacher might, you know, and a student might ask you a question like, hey, Edwin, the three to club a, is that with or without the metronome? And if I don't know I'm gonna say, Well, obviously without the metronome because we there's a need to just have it habit. And not a lot of instructors can take a step back and say, I don't know this. Let me let me go and talk to who knows about So let me talk to someone who actually does know, rather than making it up, you know, so,

1:05:04
yeah, because in our world, in the Latin dance world, most people evolved this way. You dance, you got good at it. Someone asked me to teach them, it turned into a group, you know, and then like you wanted to, like Edwin, like, if you studied something, people just kind of like just went in there. And you know, hey, let's go down this road. Next To You know, we're like, in a professional level, you know, without no degree the certificates. And it's hard to what is your What is your culture? You never think about? Let me make money out of this, you know, when it now your coaches say, that's cool I could to make money out of that, you know, I could bring that to

1:05:43
I could bring that to Europe and make a killing. Yeah.

1:05:45
And that's exactly what happened.

1:05:47
I mean, and you and you kind of see that and I don't know when you can kind of speak to this in your experience. I think also because you mentioned Toronto bachata festival, but I guess what was your experience in terms of Have you gotten? Has the reception sometimes been of you coming into international waters with this like, oh, we're just trying to learn more about bachata? Or have you come across instances where you feel like, what is your intention and purpose of me having having me here? As a Dominican,

1:06:21
I've experienced both, you know, fairly fairly decent amounts. I felt like, you know, they brought the Kota nae into a festival because they want to really, like we've been invited to private practices with World Champions because they felt that they shouldn't hold the title of World Champion as they don't know what the history is. And the corner to this day talk about this experience like whoa, yeah, World Champions. Okay, let's, let's, you know, let's talk about this. Let's, you know, get to the bottom of it. And then there's times where I feel like, I feel like sometimes I'm the token Dominican guy. You know what, I'm gonna have this festival but we need like, we need at least one Dominican, so and nobody says anything. I do feel like the token Dominican. A lot of times, you know, I'm not gonna mention festivals, but there's some festivals and you know it, you know, because you can see the again, you can look at the flyer and just look at the lineup. And and you're in the lineup of 55 sensual artists, and you're the only, quote unquote traditional, however, they want to label it to teach one workshop on one of the times when no one wants to take classes because everyone wants to be in the pool party instead. And you feel it and you're like, Damn, this really sucks. I will I really want to share my culture. This is like you said, To me, this is not a job. to a lot of people. It's a job. This is my culture. I have to, I have to teach it. I have to, you know, get out there. I'm an ambassador, if I don't do this, I lose my ambassadorship. You know, it's, you know, and as much as it's a job to a lot of people to me, it's one of those things where I can make money if I really wanted to, but then it will really change then it will be a very different product. So I feel both You know, I've been invited As the token Dominican black guy, and sometimes as the Oh wow, we finally going to get some quote unquote traditional bachata here in this country for the first time. I don't mind either because I understand it's a business and I have to understand the mentality of an organizer. But what I have done is I've used my voice tell those organizers like, Listen, you got to bring some more people. Yo, yo, y'all know about these people over there. You know about these people? This is the list. And that's my job. I can't I can't hate them. I just have to continue to share with them who are the people that they need to bring to their communities?

1:08:35
Yeah, I sometimes look at flyers for European festivals. And I'm just like this. This is very one sided. This is is it because there's no people of color? Like is there no one? No one that leans to like the other side of the spectrum that they can bring? And I mean, that's another conversation like, what, what blackness looks like in the European markets for bachata, also unlike American bachata Am I American festivals do but yeah is I guess is like to I know that we're on like the end. I mean there are more questions but they all lean towards central bachata and I don't want to focus this conversation because I'm not an expert on this I know I and I get it there's like a lot of conversations but I guess it's just I do want to kind of close this out with what you what you think dancer social dancers should look for when they're asking themselves like what is bachata defining like what musicality feels like for me when I'm out there social dancing. I'm going to use the example where I like central bachata in terms of what it feels like for me. I don't feel like central bachata feels like that. It needs to be Bongo cha cha or an English cover for it to be central. I condensed to a one these ghidra I mean, even even central artists that we see now like Danny j, sometimes there's his his songs are not 100% by shot that right and we can get into like, what the instruments looks like in these songs that people Death by chocolate to it is just going back to what you said was like the feeling as long as you have a feeling of what of what you feel like when you dance bachata, personally for me, what? What for you is something that you tell social dancers now is like when they're questioning themselves with this question of what if my child died, how they should dance and listen to the music.

1:10:22
You know, it's very simple. If people just do the research, if not your culture, just do the research because we adjust to what we're listening to, you know, it, like I said, if you hear that, that you know, in that those records and it's not like this, you know, we need that, like, he bottles, you know, without like, we're not gonna try to do much, you know, and then, you know, if we hear something more modern with a hip hop, twist, then we put hip hop into it, you know, we are, we have just whatever we're listening to, but most people because they only learn one Way of dancing, they left that with everything, you know, when you should be connecting connected to the music and music in general is in both suffering bachata has been ripped apart. You know, and it's a marriage with the music, if you know what the song feels like or what is saying, you'd be able to death to everything and have fun with it, you know, they did that I like playing the chapter version of Scooby Doo Papa, you know, and I was like, you know, I have fun with that song, you know, but it it it ended it in, you know? So, you know, I have I goof around, have fun with it. I could hit all the brakes. And then you know, dance to you know, Kiko, you know, and it's a totally different feeling. never feel the same from one song to another, because you connect to that music, you know, and the other song

1:11:54
remote founders did it over.

1:11:58
Now forget the massamba basically Saying that um, because we have problems. She had an abortion in the song

1:12:08
Oh, I was gonna say lady mess.

1:12:11
I forgot what it was called. You don't cuz I just woke up said like the sister.

1:12:15
Okay?

1:12:17
Basically but you see people definitely romantic to it. I'm like, yo, that's romantic to an abortion, you know? Yeah, that's right. But again a lot of people don't speak Spanish you know so that they have they get a pass. But like I said, you put any song in anything I guaranteed most of you guys will not look the same because you guys have an understanding of this type of bachata that type in that type. And when you connect it to, to the music as far as culturally or musically, it's fun and it looks incredible, you know?

1:12:51
Yeah, the smile just touched on like, like a whole book worth of things. One of them was this idea of The lyrics like the music I used to give is my this where you and I can differ. I used to give them a free pass for not knowing the language, but now it's not it's not about a free pass for not knowing the language because I don't need to know a language to understand the feeling or the sentiment behind the tone of the voice. And I think that that's where a lot of dancers are not spending time they're just superficially dancing, dancing through the music, rather than with the music like intertwined in it they're like kind of like going through the like, like if music was a hallway that you just pass through. I'm like no music is not a hallway you when you're in that hole, like if it is a hole where you have to look at the walls like lean against the love the wall, chill by, you know, rather than just going through so the tone the the sentiment, you know, when I first heard Bhangra for my first time, I had an instant connection to Bhangra music. I have no clue what they're talking about. But I heard this pain. In this music, I heard pain in it and One of our dancers from from LA effects. She's Indian, and she told took me through that journey like, Hey, listen, Edwin, this is what Bhangra is, is what they're talking about. Like, I knew it. I knew there was something I was connecting to. I didn't have to know the language. So I don't give them a free pass anymore. But I don't know everything that's new. Right?

1:14:17
Because you have that that interest you know, right, wherever everything you do you have that interest, but when the majority doesn't have that interest, right, they have that interest Edwin, you wouldn't be here right now. You'd be teaching everything, you know, all the people that have the knowledge and that they could bring up the best out of everybody. Then I probably have much You know, they're not guaranteed, but a backflip in there and when you be traveling, everybody's like, well, he did the triple backflip to it.

1:14:46
Whoa, he's a master. He's a master what i what i did agree with these miles and very strongly is read for me rhythm has always been King. And I think this comes from this whole hip hop mentality when you come from the 90s with a hip hop, brain. Rhythm is king. Like, you know, we have some of those Academy classes where people are like, Oh, you have to have the the Bongo, the Greta, the three guitars, right? Everybody talks about that. To me, that's not enough. I can have all those instruments. And if they're not giving you those rhythms, if you're not getting those stdp, yo rhythms, those those rhythms that you're dancing to that change over time with the different parts of the story, then you're doing a disservice to the music by calling it bachata. So if you have a remix, like you were talking about remixes, and that remix doesn't have those core rhythms. And what I mean by core rhythm is the rhythms that I bend that are the identifiers of the style. If those identifiers aren't there, I'm not gonna call it bachata. I could call it Wow, that's awesome. I love that. Um, turbo, auto rude. I'm like, whoa. I mean, that was a poor example actually, because that remix actually had the elements of bachata. It had all the instruments and it had all the rhythms that was a poor example, but you know what I mean? Take any other remix. doesn't have that has a loop of the reader, the entire song. And I'm like, No, I can't. I can't. I just

1:16:07
I'm glad you said that. But I always tell my students that on top of your list is rhythm. You know, and hearing Edwin who the teacher and a musician, it kind of reaffirms me and make me feel better. Can I say rhythm? Is everything about rhythm? You got surprised?

1:16:23
Don't be surprised if I didn't hear you say at first, though, I just say a lot more than you do.

1:16:31
But yeah, there are people out there that you know, they have a lot of knowledge in this, they should you should at least have two or three of them at an event. And then the rest, you know, for eye candy, and moles and cool moves, you know, but it's a balance. But you know, we're in a different era today where, you know, now you got to be a dancer teacher. Every second and first you got to be a promoter. Yeah, promote yourself. You know, you got to be in everybody. Say No I'm best to hire me and that's how it is you know people don't look at your work anymore You know? And that's why you see everybody's complaining how all seeing the going down because everybody's just looking for for the flashiness in the eye candy you know and not everyone I can eat but I'm gonna set out where this icon is like this because of these people that brought them up there like that, you know, you can do anything is just put the research put in the time and everything will look good.

1:17:32
Oh, we Lucy Sorry. Sorry. Oh, there we go.

1:17:36
Yeah, amen.

1:17:37
I never I definitely agree like 100% ease my life I do feel like and again, these are all conversations. This can be a series and we can dive into deeper subjects until I cool his eye candy in the like when we're talking about performing, who is center and who is not center who is like, criticize on like, what they look like more than the other person. We can also talk about How much other solo artists aren't really reached out to as much because you have to have a partner? It's like a lot. It's a lot. And this is just the first. Yeah, it's it's so deep and it's rooted. And it's Yeah. But this is our first conversation of many about like, what, just for education, like Edwin said, so people can Google it and search it and they can have a resource just to learn more and be more, more well rounded dancers. And not just in moves, but in just knowledge. So I want to thank Edwin and I want to thank you smile for joining. Awesome conversation, one of many, possibly the on lookout, we'll be talking more about chocolate with different people. Hopefully in the future. We'll have like a panel discussion where we can or hopefully we'll have a panel discussion at a Congress. Round Table. Yes. Just talking about these things that sometimes It's so awesome when we have panel discussions, congresses, because you feel like there's that in face communication and interaction and you you as a as an instructor, you you feel uplifted because people are interested in what your what you have to say where Susan what you can teach them in terms of moves and, and thinking patterns. So, yeah, thank you so much. Is there anything you'd like to add before we go?

1:19:27
Oh, this was this was great. You know, anytime like any opportunity I get to talk with this guy. It's just you know, we talked for hours already. The only thing to be recorded. Yeah.

1:19:40
Yeah. pleasure for me to talk to you guys. You guys. Like I said, I have a lot of respect for both both of you guys. What you've done and what you know your mentality. So thank you for having me.

1:19:52
Yeah, I feel so much. So, so much honor being in the presence of both of you because you both have been in different ways. So influential In terms of a smile, you have been a pioneer and the same you're always someone. You I mean, since you won first place at the budget, the competition is just like Caribbean Seoul is my l was the person was those people like that person and it was so awesome when I had the even opportunity to perform with you is I was that was a situation, but we can that can be another conversation. But I guess it's a just uplifting more of the pioneers and when you are also a pioneer in what you do. And yeah, I'm going to include all your information on what you both are doing right now or how we people can reach out to you for more information.

1:20:41
And yeah, thank you so much.

1:20:43
Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it.

1:20:45
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